Hello, folks! Someone (I don't remember who) recently referenced the Dunning-Kruger effect in a debate. It's obviously about incompetence and skill level. I'd heard of this phenomenon before, but I'd always associated it with technical fields, with engineering solutions... But could this effect be applied to creative fields? How can one determine the level of competence in the arts?
Backwoods, Hi, Sergey! It's been a while since I've seen you... I think competence can't be measured in kilograms or liters either! And in general, it's a delicate and relative matter.... In my opinion, the more ignorant a person is in any area of art, the more categorical their judgments of "good-bad"... And the saddest thing is, they don't even consider themselves to be such... And the more knowledge, the more doubts...
Hello, people! Someone (I don't remember who) recently referenced the Dunning-Kruger effect in a debate. It's obviously about incompetence and skill level. I've heard of this phenomenon before, but I associated it more with technical fields, with engineering solutions... But could this effect be applied to creative fields? How can one determine the level of competence in art?
Backwoods, To begin with, it would be a good idea to define what art is. What constitutes new creation, and what constitutes a hoax or copying of something seen before?
....In my opinion, the more ignorant a person is in any area of art, the more categorical their judgments of "good-bad"... And the saddest thing is, they don't even consider themselves to be such... And the more knowledge, the more doubts...
Yes, Vera, hello! Well, that's the essence of the effect. But I'm speaking in a practical sense, to the discussions here: - Author, you shot it poorly! - What? Explain? - Why should I explain to you, you're incompetent... - What about you?
And so on. Which of the respected figures is right?
Boris Gurevich, Viktor Kirillov, first off, greetings from Marina Glebova. We were just talking about doubts, including this photo.
Boris Gurevich, could you explain? Well, Marina accused me of being too sculptural. We were discussing that. So, let's say, creating sculptures similar to ancient ones—isn't that art? They're new forms, new characters, but at the same time, they're copying in a sense. Not art, right?
And so on. Which of the respected figures is right? [/quote] Backwoods, The one who was the FIRST in the dispute to privatize the Shukher-Nakher effect is right; the opponent can now only bleat pathetically in his own defense that he has a level and three diplomas in the field of fine art.
Boris Gurevich, Viktor Kirillov, first of all, greetings from Marina Glebova. We just discussed our doubts, including this photo.
Boris Gurevich, could you explain? Well, Marina accused me of being too sculptural. We discussed that. So, let's say, creating sculptures similar to ancient ones – isn't that art? They're new forms, new characters, but at the same time, they're copying in a sense. Not art, right?
Backwoods, Sergey, thanks for the greetings from Marina. She's missing here – both the works and the perspectives on the works... My biggest problem is with the word "LIKE"... a craftsman can copy better than an artist...
Backwoods, The one who was the FIRST in the dispute to privatize the Shukher-Nakher effect is right. The opponent can now only bleat pathetically in his defense that he has a level and three degrees in the field of visual arts.
Well, he showed up and didn't waste any time. Don Quixote, according to Marina. Where were you hanging out, Victor, I'm tired of inviting you to debates.
Victor, there's also the "kindergarten" effect. It works like this: one boy offended me, did something nasty to me. The boy is bad, it's not right to be like that. So I'll go find others with whom we can team up against this boy. And he'll see that there are many of us (two) and he'll feel ashamed. And we'll tell him that he's "sick, he needs treatment," and other profound and utterly convincing arguments. That's how we did it, woosh...
And so on. Which of these respected figures is right? Backwoods, The one who was the FIRST in the dispute to privatize the Shukher-Nakher effect is right. The opponent can now only bleat pathetically in his defense that he has three degrees in fine art.
Viktor Kirillov, Victor, Sergey raised an interesting topic that has no answer, but sometimes generates interesting discussion... Try this time to avoid the diplomas and their authors that have already been discussed many times...
I have the biggest problem with the word "SIMILIAR"... a craftsman will copy better than an artist.....
So be it. Having studied painting textbooks, I came to the following conclusion: a student, at the beginning of their development, should copy the works of the masters. This is the essence of school. Having mastered the basics (school), they can and will create something new, move forward, i.e., take a step forward. But I was talking about the DK effect. After all, even a craftsman can be an expert in their craft. Not necessarily an artist, not necessarily a creator, but possessing super-competence in their field.
Boris Gurevich, So be it. Having studied painting textbooks, I've come to understand this principle: a student, at the beginning of their development, should copy the works of the masters. That's the essence of school. Having mastered the basics (school), they can and will create something new, move forward, that is, take a step forward. But I was talking about the DK effect. After all, even a craftsman can be an expert in their craft. Not necessarily an artist, not necessarily a creator, but possessing super-competence in their field.
Backwoods, Of course so. I understand art as a symbiosis of skills and ideas. An idea isn't necessary for copying, and without skills, an idea will remain unfulfilled.
Viktor Kirillov, Well, he showed up without leaving a trace. Don Quixote, in Marina's opinion. Where have you been messing around, Victor? I'm tired of inviting you to debates.
Victor, there's also the "kindergarten" effect. It works like this: a boy offended me, did something nasty to me. That boy is bad, it's not right to be like that. So I'll go find others with whom we can team up against that boy. And he'll see there are many of us (two of us) and he'll feel incredibly ashamed. And we'll tell him he's "sick and needs treatment," and other profound and utterly convincing arguments. That's how we did it, woosh...
Backwoods, Yes, there are all sorts of effects, you can find one for any occasion. If you can't find one from psychoanalysts, you can use Krylov. I didn't have to go through this training in kindergarten; my grandmothers replaced this function on our collective farm. So, mine told me from infancy, don't mess with shit, you'll stink yourself, and never talk about photography with motorcyclists. The topic you raised, of course, invites a long and fruitless debate, but the question is initially unanswerable, since everyone decides for themselves which is the most important of the arts: Cinema or the Circus.
Viktor Kirillov, Victor, Sergey raised an interesting topic that has no answer, but sometimes generates interesting discussion... try this time to move away from the already-discussed diplomas and their authors.....
Boris Gurevich, While I was scribbling my letters, you already expressed my thought: the topic has no answer, but I'm always ready to chat.
Backwoods, Of course so. I understand art as a symbiosis of skills and ideas. An idea isn't necessary for copying, and without skills, an idea will remain unfulfilled.
And this doesn't raise any objections. What's upsetting is something else: someone says, "My kung fu is better than yours." I have the skill, and you need to improve. But in fact, it's the other way around. A metamorphosis, indeed
Boris Gurevich, While I was scribbling my letters, you already expressed my thought. The topic has no answer, but I'm always ready to chat.
Viktor Kirillov, I think faster than I write, and I'm too lazy to write..., sorry... And art, as I understand it, isn't limited to the visual... I've encountered engineering (not architectural) solutions that can only be described this way... I suppose such phenomena also occur in areas unknown to me.
Boris Gurevich, And that's not a problem. What's upsetting is that someone says, "My kung fu is better than yours." I have the skill, and you need to improve. But in fact, it's the other way around. Metamorphosis, however.
Backwoods, We've already discussed this... I'll immediately agree with such an opponent, and time and environment will judge us...
The topic you've raised certainly lends itself to a long and fruitless debate, but the question is initially unanswerable, as everyone decides for themselves which is the most important art, Cinema or Circus.
Oh, right. In the discipline of fruitless debate, you're a champion. My question may not have a definitive answer, but there is a vector close to the truth. Victor, did you know that the famous phrase about "cinema and circus" was taken out of context?
Backwoods, We've already discussed this... I'll immediately agree with such an opponent, and time and the environment will judge us...
I confess, we discussed it... But it's all about the DK effect. Why agree with such an opponent? To avoid escalating tension? On the one hand, it's wise. But then the opponent will remain in this effect, a plateau of stupidity on the graph. On the other hand, how do you tell an idiot that they're an idiot? They can't accept something they don't understand. Well, Boris, you're setting some goals (Just kidding, I started this, we'll see how time and the environment judge us)
Boris Gurevich, I confess, we discussed it... But it's all about the DK effect. Why agree with such an opponent? To avoid escalating tension? On the one hand, it's wise. But then the opponent will remain in this effect, a plateau of stupidity on the graph. On the other hand, how can you tell an idiot they're an idiot? They can't accept what they don't understand. Well, Boris, you're setting some goals. (Just kidding, I started this, we'll see how time and the environment judge us.)
Backwoods, Sergey, you can agree with your opponent in various ways and nuances, but they often immediately begin to regret it. ))) "I agree, I'm wrong" ... and "how can I disagree with the wisest of the wise" ... these are completely different kinds of agreement....
Victor, did you know that the famous phrase about "cinema and circus" was taken out of context? [/quote] Backwoods, Naturally, political information was provided on our collective farm... I'll tell you more: WE take EVERYTHING out of context. This is our main technique in scientific and artistic debates, and it may even be a Russian national idea! "A vector close to the truth" is a grave, in the sense of a moment-sea, with all the ensuing consequences.
Backwoods, Sergey, you can agree with your opponent in various ways and nuances, but often they immediately begin to regret it.)))
Okay! There are still intellectuals arguing with us here. The arguments, I'll tell you, are quite subtle... the thoughts are elegant. I don't risk getting into it. But I can play with you. Let's say I tell you, Boris, your photos are rubbish! That's all there is to it! And that's it!
Now agree with me in a way that will make me regret my lack of restraint
"A vector close to the truth" is a grave, in the sense of a moment-sea, with all the ensuing conclusions.
A vector is like a wandering compass—if you follow the shaking needle, you can inadvertently stumble into the truth. Why is it suddenly a grave? Perhaps a pleasant burial site with treasures of knowledge and the mummies of virgins?
Viktor Kirillov, A vector is like a wandering compass – if you follow the shaking needle, you can accidentally stumble into the truth. What's with it, a grave? Maybe a pleasant burial site with treasure troves of knowledge and the mummified virgins?
Backwoods, Well, you and your compass are only going until Monday, but I'm talking about the long-term prospects. You'll find a virgin billionaire in a warehouse, full of knowledge, and D. Krueger will get it in the neck, so what... where next, not immediately into the sea?
Backwoods, Well, you and your compass are only hanging out until Monday, and I'm talking about the long-term prospects. You'll find a virgin billionairess full of knowledge in a warehouse, so much so that D. Krueger won't be able to resist, so what... where next, not immediately into the sea or something?
Well, with my compass, I have a short conversation: "Do us the favor," I say, "to explain to us why we arrived at this place? We know the reason for where we are, but we can't pinpoint the exact location. It depends on the situation - either gut the billionairess, extracting her knowledge and currency, or pull the mermaid down from the branches and gut her too - maybe she has caviar... Well, and thoughts, of course - that's how it is... that's true... there's no such thing as something that doesn't happen... Well, Sometimes you sit and think - it's possible, not because, but still. But otherwise, I completely agree with you!
So, where did everyone go? Victor, of course, is eating his evening meatloaf; he has an excuse. Where are the rest of the rowdy ones? Who's going to tell me I need treatment? That the orderlies are crying over me? Where are all those witty jokes? Where's that killer humor? I even posted a photo of the screw-ups – zero emotion. I hope no one reacted.
So, where did everyone go? Victor, of course, is eating his evening meatloaf; he has an excuse. Where are the rest of the rowdy ones? Who's going to tell me I need treatment? That the orderlies are crying over me? Where are all these witty jokes? Where's this killer humor? I even posted a photo of the screw-ups – zero emotion. If only someone would react
Backwoods, So, I ate a cutlet, washed it down with vodka, what's the matter? The debate fizzled out, and because the topic is lofty and abstract, it doesn't touch anyone personally. You, on the topic of mental effects, add some real-life concreteness. Don't offer up your little orphan in sandals to be torn to pieces, but rather, give the masters of lighting schemes, masters of workshops, and projects collaborating with haymakers a good shake. You'll notice how the audience noticeably perks up and genuinely engages in discussions of your wandering vector. (Not to be confused with Victor, who's on a bender.)
Viktor Kirillov, well, while you were there, bubbling away, we brought you some work – collages and uncollages. Kindly get off your ass and do it: https://photocentra.de/author.php?id_auth=25140
Viktor Kirillov, well, while you were there bubbling with cutlets, we brought you some work – collages and uncollages. Get off your butt and do it: https://photocentra.de/author.php?id_auth=25140
Boris Gurevich, So be it. Having studied painting textbooks, I've come to understand this postulate: a student, at the beginning of their development, should copy the works of the masters. That's the essence of school. Having mastered the basics (school), they can and will create something new, move forward, that is, take a step further. But I was talking about the DK effect. After all, even a craftsman can be an expert in their craft. Not necessarily an artist, not necessarily a creator, but possessing super-competence in their field.
Backwoods, Sergey, perhaps it can be put this way... A creator is an idea embodied in any form; a craftsman is an exact repetition of form. A creator will never create an exact copy of their work; a craftsman will certainly make as many copies as needed. A creator's work has energy, while a craftsman's does not.
Backwoods, Sergey, perhaps it can be put this way... A creator is an idea embodied in any form, a craftsman, an exact repetition of the form. A creator will never create an exact copy of their work, a craftsman will certainly make as many copies as needed. The creator's works have energy, the craftsman's do not.
I think so. That's the problem with energy. Who measured it? What is this substance? And one more thing. An artist (creator) has an idea. They create a prototype. Craftsmen make it accessible. I'm talking about technology, cars, airplanes... In art... Who knows. Rembrandt created a trend in portraiture. Those who painted in Rembrandt's style—who are they? Craftsmen or artists too? Did they create art?
Backwoods, Yeah, rich material, I'm digging through my archives. I just came across a piece of MY wedding creativity, all the way back to 2009.
Well, then, show the shawarma... the masterpiece to the public eye, since it's already completely invisible. Smart and friendly viewers will tell you about your creativity, and where to go with it. Everyone here is kind.
Vladimir Bayker, I think so, yes, that's right. The problem is energy. Who measured it? What kind of substance is it? And one more thing. The artist (creator) has an idea. They create a prototype. Craftsmen make it accessible. I'm talking about technology, cars, airplanes... In art... Who knows. Rembrandt created a new trend in portraiture. Those who painted in Rembrandt's style—who were they? Craftsmen or artists, too? Did they create art?
Backwoods, there's no problem with energy; sometimes it's so strong that you feel it on a physical level; the works emanate warmth. But a copy emanate nothing, because it's a dead product. For example, the works of a little-known artist, especially one without a "school," simply radiated warmth, while some works by world-famous artists were dead. I expressed my suspicions about the celebrity's works to an art historian I knew, and was told that some of the master's works were, to put it mildly, highly questionable, but an expert examination confirmed the signature's authenticity, and the works were included in the exhibition. In any style and movement, there are creators and artisans; the former draw their inspiration from within, the latter from without—perhaps that's the difference.
Viktor Kirillov, Well, then show the shawarma... a masterpiece to the public eye, otherwise it's completely invisible. Smart and friendly observers will tell you about your creativity, and where to go with it, with creativity. Everyone here is kind.
Backwoods, Well, I was just about to pump out some clever stuff from the internet or from my middle finger for an intellectual conversation, and you're offering me some more vulgarity, like a photographer should show off his creativity with his cards. You don't even consider diplomas or honorary participant certificates, and what about the level of education? Are you really going to reduce everything back to the banal ability to press a button? Well, I don’t know how to construct a geometric perspective or draw shadows for horses, but I am a CREATOR, that’s how I see it, especially since ENERGY is pouring out of every orifice of my soul.
Backwoods, there's no problem with the energy; sometimes it's so strong that you feel it on a physical level; warmth emanates from the works.
I confess, I don't experience energy on a "physical level." My antennae aren't tuned. It's hard for me to talk about energy—it's easy to fall victim to DK's favorite effect. So I'm not confirming anything, but I have my doubts. For example, they found an unknown work by a famous artist. But it's unclear whether it's the original or a fake. If the energy were a gem, what could be simpler? You felt the energy and immediately understood everything. But no. Expertise is needed, sometimes very deep and comprehensive. And how can you think about it? If an expert confirms that it's original, then the energy will immediately appear? And where was it before the expert's examination?
Backwoods, Well, I was just about to churn out some clever bits of wisdom from the internet or from my middle finger for an intellectual conversation, and you're offering me some more vulgarity, like a photographer should demonstrate creativity with his cards. You don't even consider diplomas or honorary participant certificates, and what about education level? Are you really going to reduce everything to the banal ability to press a button again? Well, I can't construct a geometric perspective or draw shadows for horses, but I am a CREATOR, that's how I see it, especially since ENERGY is gushing out of every orifice of my soul.
Well, that's it... You can gain more cleverness every evening, but only in moderation. My point is, it's high time you exposed yourself – post a photo to please your critics and opponents. They need to let off some steam and express their grievances
Viktor Kirillov, Well, that's it... You can gain more intelligence every evening, but only in moderation. What I'm saying is, it's high time you exposed yourself—post a photo to please your critics and opponents. They need to let off some steam, express their grievances.
Backwoods, That's the dilemma: producing collages, even crooked ones like mine, requires a lot of raw materials and time. I'm not a prolific machine operator, so where can I get you a machine for expressing grievances? Just this once, I went for a walk outside the village and took some photos of lupines in the snow. I'll post them this evening, feel free to have a go.
Backwoods, What a dilemma! Producing collages, even crooked ones like mine, requires a lot of raw materials and time. I'm not a prolific machine operator, so where can I get you a simulator for realizing your grievances? Just this week, I went for a walk outside the village and took some photos of lupines in the snow. I'll post them this evening, feel free to go crazy.
Well, what can you do, Victor? You need to learn to be a machine operator. Luckily, you have someone to teach you. You were so forthcoming about Evgeny, but he produces such magnificent collages, many and often. I don't know if he'll even teach you editing.
Viktor Kirillov, Well, what can you do, Victor? You need to learn to be a machine operator. Luckily, you have someone to teach you. You were so unrestrained about Evgeny, but he produces such gorgeous collages, so many and so often. I don't know if he'll even teach you editing.
Backwoods, Oh, I wish I had that kind of material, that burnt-out Lutheran church. I read about it, looked at other photos. It's a real treasure trove and a real find for a photographer. Even Evgeny, with his incredible ability to vulgarize everything, couldn't completely ruin that scene. I'd like to see your billionaire sprawled out on the balusters there. Now that's where there's scope for imagination and style.
But could this effect be applied to creative fields? How can one determine the level of competence in the arts?
- Author, you shot it poorly!
- What? Explain?
- Why should I explain to you, you're incompetent...
- What about you?
And so on. Which of the respected figures is right?
Boris Gurevich, could you explain? Well, Marina accused me of being too sculptural. We were discussing that.
So, let's say, creating sculptures similar to ancient ones—isn't that art? They're new forms, new characters, but at the same time, they're copying in a sense. Not art, right?
Backwoods, The one who was the FIRST in the dispute to privatize the Shukher-Nakher effect is right; the opponent can now only bleat pathetically in his own defense that he has a level and three diplomas in the field of fine art.
My biggest problem is with the word "LIKE"... a craftsman can copy better than an artist...
Victor, there's also the "kindergarten" effect. It works like this: one boy offended me, did something nasty to me. The boy is bad, it's not right to be like that. So I'll go find others with whom we can team up against this boy. And he'll see that there are many of us (two) and he'll feel ashamed. And we'll tell him that he's "sick, he needs treatment," and other profound and utterly convincing arguments. That's how we did it, woosh...
But I was talking about the DK effect. After all, even a craftsman can be an expert in their craft. Not necessarily an artist, not necessarily a creator, but possessing super-competence in their field.
Yes, there are all sorts of effects, you can find one for any occasion. If you can't find one from psychoanalysts, you can use Krylov. I didn't have to go through this training in kindergarten; my grandmothers replaced this function on our collective farm. So, mine told me from infancy, don't mess with shit, you'll stink yourself, and never talk about photography with motorcyclists.
The topic you raised, of course, invites a long and fruitless debate, but the question is initially unanswerable, since everyone decides for themselves which is the most important of the arts: Cinema or the Circus.
And art, as I understand it, isn't limited to the visual... I've encountered engineering (not architectural) solutions that can only be described this way... I suppose such phenomena also occur in areas unknown to me.
Victor, did you know that the famous phrase about "cinema and circus" was taken out of context?
Well, Boris, you're setting some goals
(Just kidding, I started this, we'll see how time and the environment judge us)
"I agree, I'm wrong" ... and "how can I disagree with the wisest of the wise" ... these are completely different kinds of agreement....
Backwoods, Naturally, political information was provided on our collective farm... I'll tell you more: WE take EVERYTHING out of context. This is our main technique in scientific and artistic debates, and it may even be a Russian national idea!
"A vector close to the truth" is a grave, in the sense of a moment-sea, with all the ensuing consequences.
But I can play with you. Let's say I tell you, Boris, your photos are rubbish! That's all there is to it! And that's it!
Now agree with me in a way that will make me regret my lack of restraint
It depends on the situation - either gut the billionairess, extracting her knowledge and currency, or pull the mermaid down from the branches and gut her too - maybe she has caviar...
Well, and thoughts, of course - that's how it is... that's true... there's no such thing as something that doesn't happen... Well, Sometimes you sit and think - it's possible, not because, but still.
But otherwise, I completely agree with you!
I even posted a photo of the screw-ups – zero emotion. I hope no one reacted.
https://photocentra.de/author.php?id_auth=25140
https://c.radikal.ru/c09/2103/4b/64268647d507.jpg
And one more thing. An artist (creator) has an idea. They create a prototype. Craftsmen make it accessible. I'm talking about technology, cars, airplanes... In art... Who knows. Rembrandt created a trend in portraiture. Those who painted in Rembrandt's style—who are they? Craftsmen or artists too? Did they create art?
So I'm not confirming anything, but I have my doubts. For example, they found an unknown work by a famous artist. But it's unclear whether it's the original or a fake. If the energy were a gem, what could be simpler? You felt the energy and immediately understood everything. But no. Expertise is needed, sometimes very deep and comprehensive. And how can you think about it? If an expert confirms that it's original, then the energy will immediately appear? And where was it before the expert's examination?